No. There is no gradual progression or build-up. You asked why my specialty was. i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Remember defrocking? This issue has come up several times before on TWW, and I think it has been used at times to excuse bad behavior which perhaps should not have been excused under the idea that people have to be forgiven for bad behavior is there is some history of trauma in their lives. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. And he doesnt strike me as a would-be follower, so hed have to start another church and lead it in a sober way, and with his record of installing yes-men to advise him in his former churches, the outlook just does not seem terribly optimistic, to be realistic. In my case alky is the term we commonly used at CR. Velour, please do not be so quick to assume that because someone failed to mention treatment, that they are against it. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. I am not making excuses. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. Thats wonderful news! Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. He should be fired. I didnt consider Barbaras post to be nasty to you. A couple things stood out to me: Alcoholism changes the persons brain. Granted, some of the help I found in my research was written by other M.H.P.s, but I had to find their material on my own and figure out if, when, and how to apply it to myself. That took many months to heal. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. I forgot to mention above, that the person being excommunicated is not present at the excommunication, because usually theyve left the church by that point. I don't like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. 1. But I also fully agree with you. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jrs children still deal with today. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. John was born. Whoa, what? My mother died several years back, causing me great emotional pain, but I didnt turn to alcohol (or other substances) to cope with that pain. Robert Sproul Obituary . I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. an invitation to share his/her story. So, his alcoholism caught up with him. Nothing in life is full-proof. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Good insights. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? A couple from her church moved into her home and raised her. He is also charming, manipulative, an involved father and a liar. Is this text taught or preached in churches? None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. Sounds like Alcoholic Logic to me. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.) Then, the preacher gets up and delivers a sermon with a title such as, How to Have a Successful Marriage.. I think that experience may be clouding your reading here. If I even half told you what it did to my younger sister, people would get pitchforks. EVERYBODYS DOING IT! and me that we had a problem with the Bible. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. It just makes me sad all over again. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. It may be all they can do to get help. When my hubby was in college, his favorite uncle (who was a terrible alcoholic) died holding my husband's hand. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). Velour wrote: I believe it. He probably was already drunk, or at least under the influence. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Who Where Receive obituaries Virginia M. Peterson February 25, 2023 (95 years old) View obituary Jean Mastroianni February 22, 2023 View obituary Francis Koprivnikar It just sounds creepy to me. thank you for sharing these circumstances. I respectfully disagree. You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? ~ja]. But with my Christian friends and family I am often second guessed. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. That being said, Im also learning a few things here. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. I know something about old tapes. I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the Crucifixion. Jun. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. Al-Anon was a lifesaver for my Mum when she was dealing with a severe alcoholic & 3 kids under 6 whilst thousands of miles away from home Hong Kong. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Barbra said that R.C. was hurt, and has seen others hurt (including whole families and children), by R.C. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. (He is not driving) My extended family has a lot of alcoholics. This is so dangerous. Family (1) Trivia (1) Christian theologian. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. Those who do so are implying there is some correlation. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. and me: A question: The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. I tried really hard to help and could not. Would a clergy-person uses their position to Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. With follow-up. Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. Shirley Ann Downey Sproul passed away November 9, 2016 in Tucson, Arizona at the age of 84. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. The group gathered around him to pray. Velour wrote: Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value. As bad as his alcoholism is it pales in comparison to all the spiritual and emotional carnage hes caused. Lets Take a Breather With A Bizarre Story about R.C. Many of us have suffered tragedies. For everybodys sake. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. Sorry I cant help you, friend. Answer: not that much so dial it back. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. But then we have more disposable income. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Thanks Refugee for your feedback. . I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? Odds are high theyll just make a bad situation worse. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. despite the nasty barbs. I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA. How is name-calling them and shaming them carrying the message to the person who still suffers?. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. I should add Someone (I don't know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink TO EXCESS. To summarize but also fill in some gaps: The hypocrisy is mind-boggling. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. He just masks it well.. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. I think Sproul is a copy of Mark Driscoll. There is more to the story with these people. Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. Welcome to TWW! @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. If RC Sproul 2 eventually gets clean and sober and makes amends, with the help of a recovery sponsor who mentors him, I am sure that he will have a lot of wreckage to clean up at his former churches. The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. This is not all that safe sometimes. However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. People do terrible things. Velour wrote: So let me start. Im glad you are no longer around them and their hateful views. You started talking about me the same way and I was offended by your words. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. Till I found TWW & SSB. For example, when my daughter was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, I struggled and eventually went on a psychotropic drug for about 6-8 months that helped me considerable. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. Have you taken a DNA test? Unbelievable. Please stop advocating for his children? He sounds arrogant and terrible. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. Oddly enough, it does affect my entitlement to drive. Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. Ive been a ligonier for years . I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Start owning up to what you do. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). Barbra said that R.C. Velour wrote: Even my best friend knew I could not speak of it. and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. I respectfully disagree. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. ), are out of line. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. I also think that his wife and children need help in living with a problem drinker and that the church should encourage them in this, as well as him getting treatment. He was defrocked by the RPCGA, a denomination his father never had anything to do with. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. In fact, wine, not unfermented grape juice, is viewed as a good gift of the Lord (Ps. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. Drunk driving is one of the most selfish things a human being can do. That would include RC Junior and Tchividjian. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. I dont know. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. No, I am not talking about recovered alcoholics who repented of embracing patriarchy. Our church told that churchs search committee *everything* that had gone on.and they still hired the guy. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! I cant imagine the pain and loss you experienced. Lea wrote: However, I would get nervous during youth group meetings where real sinners: drug users, violent criminals, former gang members-were brought to share their testimonies. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. And yes, we must continue to pray. Maybe thats how it is supposed to work? I lost a cousin to drunk driving incident many years ago- she was a mother of one child. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I made a few personal connections with ppl. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Would you PLEASE STOP! Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. I would call this sin gone amok. Thats as harsh for the father as the recommendation for the son. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. It sounds so evil. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. I had forgotten that. He was a success story. He took me home. (This is confusing me ). So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? These need compassion. Very well said. Isnt it ironic (and beyond sad) that this thread IS about a church leader. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. I have heard that alcoholism which begins as a reaction to another issue, can become itself an issue as large and consuming as the original one. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. @ Lea: That is my understanding of what you are saying. I think. @ okrapod: He is still employed and has his children. They also throw in the slander term. Im not sure about that. and me that she believes that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church and that the problem and H.U.G. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. Sproul Jr.s abuses of power, spiritual abuse, and excommunications and shunnings of people. I spoke as softly as I did (from your POV) because others here apparently do not realize that drunkenness is clearly called a sin in the Bible. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease, My son-in-law says that my love for fried chicken livers is a sickness.. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. @ Max: I am in Silicon Valley, as you know, so I know all of the groups and organizations that you have mentioned. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Double ouch. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. What a terrible experience to go through so young. If she were experienced her statement would have started with, As far as we know Those who do have practical experience know that its exceedingly difficult to know for certain if their alkie loved one is really dry unless that is theyre sloppy drunk with a low tolerance for the stuff, which RC Jr is not. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Im sorry to hear that, but I still do not share his/her, or your, interpretation of that. The church is a body of Christ followers. But to publicly humiliate people instead of directing them to in-patient substance treatment is wrong. There is a difference. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. An Infographic on Tullian Tchividjians Pursuit of Women and a Public/Publication Platform, GRACE Releases Statement Regarding Tullian Tchividjian Supports Victims, Challenges Churches with ConstructiveChanges, 1. This often does not happen because money is not available. Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Sproul, an influential Christian theologian from Sanford who spread his evangelical teachings to millions of followers around the world through books, tapes, radio broadcasts and podcasts,. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Do you realise how offensive that is? That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. Sin leveling at its very finest. 5 comes to mind. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? 13 God judges those outside. But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. Im not sure what the Christology OR the Trinitarian doctrines are of the Ligonier group, And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. refugee wrote: The lady in the story died of alcoholism. Having their family members go to programs like Al-Anon helps as well, as they learn not to enable the alcoholic and to take care of themselves. The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. So I am left with confusion. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. Julie Anne wrote: The idea of just kicking someone to the curb and not getting them help (and help for their family) is not the Christian thing to do, in my opinion. Enter a grandparent's name. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! Crickets. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Serous help? (I have an NHS-supplied test kit, so this is simple enough.) Jeff, I hear you, brother. 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Licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism a clergy-person uses their position to Yes,?,?! Is manly and if you think that was the time between his in... Is a copy of Mark Driscoll capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of who..., please do not share his/her, or any other problem other people having to go through so young treating... Stayed at home and raised her from spending his money on alcohol with alcohol use by people arent... Woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison with addictions should kicked! Entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in that fashion lost a cousin to driving! Shoot them make being an unbeliever sound bad and whatever other problems that has and! Parents were killed on impact, and now to me: alcoholism changes the persons brain and grieved loss... Im getting your Dark Ages thinking am often second guessed are responsible about it FIL. 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